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Post by Appliedsoc on Oct 27, 2009 13:19:43 GMT -5
One final issue when leaving academia that those who are interested should keep in mind: it is often difficult to come back to academia later.
The reason I am looking at this site this year is because I know that this might be one of the last years where I would still have a shot at an academic job.
The reasons for this are numerous, and go well beyond the general distrust that academics have of professionals.
The first is that the longer you are outside academia, the older your teaching experiences become. People take minimum wage jobs as adjuncts for a reason, and that is to stay fresh as teachers.
The second is that the longer you are outside academia, the harder it is to keep up with the cutting edge of research.
The third is that your publication record will have less and less to do with sociology.
And the fourth are the connections. The longer you are outside academia, the fewer people you know inside of it, etc. etc.
Again, not trying to discourage anyone. Just want to make sure people do things knowing what the results might be.
As a bottom line, there are probably 30 academic jobs I could apply to this year, but of those I think there are only 5 or 6 that I would definitely prefer over my current job. There are a few more that I would accept depending on negotiations. But I would not even apply for the vast majority of them.
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Post by adios on Oct 27, 2009 14:17:01 GMT -5
Points well taken, Appliedsoc. I would be especially concerned about getting reference letters after an absence from academia.
But this goes back to my original post - do y'all think the dismal conditions of this year's market alter the calculus involved in deciding to leave? In other words, for those wondering whether it will be possible to return to academia down the road, will future academic employers (and letter writers) look upon these years as a pitiful time when a whole cohort of new phds were left with few options, and then cut people slack who want to return to the flock?
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Post by appliedsoc on Oct 27, 2009 14:32:19 GMT -5
Points well taken, Appliedsoc. I would be especially concerned about getting reference letters after an absence from academia. But this goes back to my original post - do y'all think the dismal conditions of this year's market alter the calculus involved in deciding to leave? In other words, for those wondering whether it will be possible to return to academia down the road, will future academic employers (and letter writers) look upon these years as a pitiful time when a whole cohort of new phds were left with few options, and then cut people slack who want to return to the flock? Will they be more understanding of non academic positions in the future? Probably. But competition for academic jobs will in all likelihood also increase. Just look at how many people are going on the market each year. It seems every department has at least 5 or 6 people listed as "on the market" on their website. We are moving towards a situation where significantly less than 50% of PhDs ever get a tenure track position. The issue is that even with this greater tolerance you'd still have to overcome the hurdles in place (publications, teaching experience, being younger and seen as having more potential, etc). Can you overcome it? Sure. But it is difficult. A good read, though a bit outdated, on the matter is www.asanet.org/galleries/default-file/RBDoctorates.pdf
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Post by R2D2 on Oct 27, 2009 14:38:29 GMT -5
But this goes back to my original post - do y'all think the dismal conditions of this year's market alter the calculus involved in deciding to leave? Did I miss something? Is the market this year really dismal? The number of openings compared with last year before schools canceled searches seems the same to me. And even though last year the job market was bad for some, people did get jobs.
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Post by old head on Oct 27, 2009 15:36:07 GMT -5
The imminent collapse of the American economy makes higher education not particularly valuable. To the extent that sociologists can apply skills and there is demand, there will be jobs. But, the social landscape has shifted to just making ends meet. Sociology seems to increasingly be headed towards disciplines like many humanities, with 50% of PhDs being able to find a job in higher ed. I know sociology PhDs who are now working as adjuncts, in temp jobs, and animal shelters because they lack pubs or a signed book contract necessary to get even a 4-4 teaching load. It varies from field-to-field, but the general trend looks pretty dismal.
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Post by adios on Oct 27, 2009 16:44:26 GMT -5
Did I miss something? Is the market this year really dismal? The number of openings compared with last year before schools canceled searches seems the same to me. And even though last year the job market was bad for some, people did get jobs. Looks like you're only considering the supply of jobs. What about demand? If the number of openings remains the same, then yes, the market will surely be worse this year because everyone (minus the leavers) who couldn't find work last year is out looking again. It's like appliedsoc pointed out - the competition is rising.
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Post by anonymous donkey on Oct 28, 2009 16:30:10 GMT -5
I'd echo what appliedsoc and others have said. I left not particularly willingly, having been very very invested in the whole TT big university thing, and have been pretty happy. I live in a nice place that I don't particularly want to leave and now I don't have to, as it has a fairly robust white-collar economy but no chance of ever landing a professor job here (too desirable basically).
Yes, my job is a bit boring at times, but so is all work, even (gasp) the university. I spent a lot of my time as an august scholar grading first year student papers, hustling for laughably small amounts of money from obscure funding agencies, attending dreadfully dull seminars. I'm sure that I deal with less paperwork overall as a "desk jockey" than I did in the university.
I would say I'm fairly underemployed. I do not have a job that requires a PhD, I am not the director of research or anything like that, but still the perks are quite noticeable compared to what I had in scholarship, e.g. very good health care and pension. Unlike scholarship, I feel like I have a number of avenues for developing my career: move up in this organization, shop around for a better job, self-employment/contracting/consulting opportunities once I am more well known in the industry. More than anything I am just shocked by how much people trust me and listen to me, which was certainly never the norm in the university as a grad student (prob better as a junior professor but you are still a little suspect without tenure).
As far as vacation and autonomy, yes it is much less. And that does really grate on me in the peak of the summer. But I still have 4 weeks, a bunch of paid holidays, "discretionary" days (basically vacation but they are only given to certain job categories), sick days, and the fact that my academic friends are often grinding it out on sunday mornings.
One thing I'll mention to anyone considering this: there have been a lot of secondary benefits that go along with this in the non-work parts of life. My marriage is in much better shape than it was a year ago, I have a broader range of friends than I used to in the university, and my travel decisions do not all revolve around where some conference might be held this summer. I am in much better health overall due to better health care plan + more evening time to exercise + living in area with a much nicer climate than the big R1 school I attended (read: much shorter milder winters, where I do not pack on the pounds during the cold months). These are not small things in a person's life, at least they mean a lot to me.
Just something to think about. You can still have an interesting life outside of the university. It can even be more interesting - I believe mine is as far as the range of people I come in contact with, while still learning a lot of things on the fly.
PS the targeted google ad on this page is "train for a new career and change your life!" from some degree mill online college. LOL.
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not exactly bailing
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Post by not exactly bailing on Oct 28, 2009 19:15:10 GMT -5
I have my first interview next week, and it's with a big policy research group. I applied for academic jobs on a very limited basis (personal issues make it impossible to go just anywhere), but I'm not sure that's what I want anyway. I've found the comments on this thread to be very encouraging. Basically I'd like to work with nice, smart people doing work that's usually interesting and reasonably challenging. I'm not particularly interested in auditioning for my job for 6 years. But I do enjoy teaching, love summers off (or at least a change of pace), and I don't want to let my advisor down (best advisor EVER). Not sure why I'm posting this--I suppose I'm sorting out my own thoughts. In any case, for me a non-academic job is not necessarily bailing. I think it may be what I actually want.
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Post by adios on Oct 28, 2009 19:28:17 GMT -5
Good luck, not exactly bailing!
I'm with you. I don't think I want an academic job, it has just been so long since I've been on the other side that it's scary to think about crossing over. But anonymous donkey gives a great sales pitch, basically summarizing all the things that are already drawing me away.
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Post by anonymous donkey on Oct 29, 2009 13:35:58 GMT -5
I hope I haven't oversold this, I still have my moments where I envy people in academia. I know professors in town at a Desirable University - probably one 99% of you are trying to get jobs at - and yes they have an incredible life full of expense-paid international travel (summers in France, etc) and important people kissing their ass.
But that lifestyle is just not attainable for the VAST majority of people in academia, and the lifestyle in scholarship that is attainable for me - even with a degree from a well known school, publications, grant money etc - is pretty marginal. Bottom line: I have no interest in living thousands of miles from my spouse and seeing them once a month, I don't want to wait until I'm 40 to have kids because it "interferes" with the tenure track, I don't want to live somewhere I have no connection to where I don't know anyone. That's probably what I would have had to do in scholarship since I wasn't a premium candidate who could write my own ticket.
In a way this was easier for me because I had a department and especially an advisor that did not care about me at all, I never really thought about letting down my advisor as I doubt he had any expectations of my success. It was a little more difficult with family who get really wrapped up in you being a professor but I think they understand that I'm happier now (and another side effect is that I get along better with family, I don't feel like I have to explain myself to them all the time).
Don't take an outside job thinking you will go back and be a professor later. You won't. Ever. I have never heard of anyone who did. Then again you may not want to.
I was very surprised about how little I missed about academic life. I enjoyed teaching for the most part but it is done in such an overwhelming way at my school (basically Big State U, massive classes, massive absenteeism, grade-grubbing, cheating, you know what i mean) that I don't miss the stress that went along with it.
I actually did private tutoring for a time because I had taught stats a lot and there is great demand for that everywhere, I found that very satisfying but also exhausting in the way that most teaching can be so I ultimately stopped b/c it ate into evenings and weekends too much. All I'm saying is you've got plenty of options after scholarship. If you like teaching, teach - people will even pay you to do so (or give it away for free if you don't care about the money). If you like writing, write - even more amazing is that people will pay you to do that (or give it away for free online).
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Post by thanks on Oct 30, 2009 9:27:38 GMT -5
i was 'bail fail' above... i just want to say thanks so much to everyone for their thoughts... and especially for the links to the leavingacademia.com, etc. i found another interesting site too: www.escapetheivorytower.com/i am getting ready to begin applying for public/private sector jobs (where i promise to capitalize my writing!)... does anyone have any additional resources/advice for revamping your cv for these positions? i am most interested in research based organizations... thank you!
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Post by appliedsoc on Oct 30, 2009 11:11:06 GMT -5
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Post by anonymous donkey on Oct 30, 2009 15:36:31 GMT -5
+1 to the comments above. Think in terms of skills, not achievements. That's the single biggest difference between university work and everything else.
A sociology graduate student has great skills. Your computer savvy, public speaking skills and ability to manage large projects independently are far beyond those of most white collar workers. IT's just a matter of presentation. We are trained to think in terms of accomplishments, discrete fixed things in the past e.g. I won this award, I wrote this article. Nobody cares, they want skills that have daily use.
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Post by Joe on Oct 30, 2009 20:37:10 GMT -5
Hey all,
My 2cents: I've been on both sides. I went from academia to a fairly high pressure research gig. I enjoyed the financial benefits, and the travel was entertaining for a while. I got many more stamps in my passport, and without ever ringing up a bit of credit card debt. Hotels were luxury hotels. I worked with PhDs from a variety of positions.
But other's comments are right. Working for other ppl sucks ass. Trying to meet the needs of crazy clients, with a crazy boss mediating between you and them made for some of the most difficult years of my life. And crazy boss didn't have much respect for work/life balance, as evidenced by the 80 hr weeks I booked in Feb 08. Company shrank in the great depression here, and I landed a decent VAP. So here I am on the market again.
On one hand, the financial independence is much nicer. The support you get for travel is much nicer. The neighborhood you live in, and the parking lot full of mercs and beemers (yes I am that shallow) is much nicer.
OTOH, working for others sucks. Dealing with admin in biz means (for me at least) dealing with their crazy nuts every d**n day all day. As opposed to saying hi to the dean in the hallway three times a semester.
IMHO, they are both the dark side, and for different reasons. Don't go into academics dreaming of the tweedy professor at a SLAC on the seacoast, and be surprised that you're teaching a 4-4 in some random town for 50k per year.
But also, biz comes with bosses and clients, doing fairly simple research for fairly simple people. The money might take longer to materialize than you think.
In my experience, I am poorer, but happier with my independence, and a whole host of skills that I could employ consulting with luck, and which nobody else understands even remotely.
just my experience.
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Post by dc on Nov 23, 2009 8:27:35 GMT -5
One thing that comes through in the experiences of people on the non-academic side is that there's a lot of variety. The autonomy loss relative to academia fairly universal, but otherwise positions and organizations differ a lot. Some require only 40 hour weeks, but some are 80. A top tier evaluation org will put a lot of emphasis on details of rigorous empirical design, but organizations like appliedsoc's that do more descriptive work might find discussions of missing data "too academic" (jaws would drop if someone said that at my job). Some places the organizational culture will suck and in others it will be much more humane than in most academic departments with tenure pressure and large/fragile egos. I've been lucky, the culture where I am is supportive, the work is generally interesting and varied, I have to use pretty much all the skills I picked up in grad school and have learned a lot more in a short time, and of course the pay is nice. Since my work week is generally 40 hours, I could act like an academic and spend my evenings and weekends trying to churn out publications, but although that does hold some appeal to me, it suddenly seems not quite so worth giving up the rest of my life for. I feel extraordinarly fortunate about where I landed, but (1) my worklife and lifestyle wouldn't be nearly as good in many other organizations and (2) although the work fits my interests it wouldn't necessarily be a good fit for many people.
So in considering whether or not to bail on academia, you've got to figure out what you're about and what's important to you, what the organizations you're looking at are all about, and like a lot of things in life, you hope for a little luck.
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